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There are a couple of students
from Princeton University who are floating the idea of holding
a World's Fair in New York in 2012. A number of us have been
contacted and asked to contribute to an online petition they
are circulating that they hope to present to NY officials when
they request that NY host a fourth World's Fair.
Since you were involved in
the last Fair and were intimately involved in selling the Fair
to the public, what advice would you give them, from your unique
perspective, for selling the Fair to New York? - Bill Young
GREG DAWSON: I hesitate to put a damper on enthusiasm by anyone
interested in creating a World's Fair since my own experience
with the '64 Fair was enormously interesting and fulfilling.
But a great deal has happened in the world over the almost 40
years since that Fair and the likelihood of a World's Fair anywhere
in the US, let alone New York City, seems to me to be incredibly
remote.
World's Fairs have traditionally been punctuations
marks in history, usually highlighting great achievements of
the past and heralding wonders yet to come or introducing wonders
just born. But that was in eras when progress didn't move all
that fast, when if you conceived a Fair and finally opened it
three to four years later, nothing much changed. Today change
happens in nanoseconds. Whatever you might plan for an exhibit
today will be history by the time a Fair would open.
Then too, what is the need for a Fair?
We have giant amusement parks like the Disney products which
seem in their way far more glorious than any Fair I can imagine.
[They are] filled with rides, with exhibits by corporations,
with multi-national year-long festivals. We have generations
of kids that have grown up during the past 40 years exposed to
ever greater multimedia and motion picture special effects, effects
that really couldn't be duplicated at a World's Fair and would
thus make exhibits look boring and drab in comparison.
And most of all we have the tradition that
all American-created World's Fairs have lost considerable sums
of money so that any kind of fund raising effort to launch a
Fair would be dubious at best. The $35 million in bonds that
had to be sold to make the '64 Fair possible would be somewhere
in the neighborhood of over $350 million today.
I applaud the energy and imagination that
the Princeton students have exhibited. But my own feeling is
that the reality of their dream will remain just that ... a dream.
I don't think that in these economic times and at this point
in the history of New York City when its major priority is rebuilding
the Downtown area, there is any kind of support for a new World's
Fair. After all, and I made this point back in 1964, New York
City itself is a giant World's Fair. Superimposing a World's
Fair upon a "World's Fair" is somewhat redundant.
I have very positive memories
of the NYWF. Just two questions: I remember reading that representatives
from Montreal's Expo67 visited the NYWF. Their goal, I believe,
was to gain information and ideas of what worked in New York
and what was not quite so successful. I believe they hoped to
gain valuable insights as to how to create a positive environment
for Expo by viewing New York's fair at the peak of its operation.
Do you recall these visits by Expo representatives and if so,
what ideas did they take with them after spending time in Flushing
Meadow? Secondly, I loved virtually everything I saw at the NYWF.
As a professional who had to market the Fair, however, what was
the most challenging part of your task and what, if anything,
about the Fair would you have changed? Thank you for taking your
time to share your ideas with us. I certainly appreciate reading
your thoughts. - Jim
GREG DAWSON: Yes, the Expo people did come to the Fair to
do all you outline in your question. What they took back with
them I'm really not certain. But we did much the same thing with
Seattle. I went to Seattle to look over what their operation
was like and even traveled up to the top of the unfinished Space
Needle. Others from our Fair went out there to look over their
operation. Their Fair was, of course, before ours opened.
I know that one thing the Expo people were
interested in was licensing and I believe that they spent some
time with Martin Stone and his licensing operation. Following
the close of our Fair I was retained as a consultant by both
HemisFair in San Antonio and by Expo67 in Montreal. Most of my
work for them consisted in helping them structure ticket packages
and help with their advance ticket sales program.
What would I have changed about our Fair?
Well had it been within my power, and it wasn't, I certainly
would have wanted to change the relationship between Mr. Moses
and the media. He was an enormously controversial person all
his life and for most of it he had a kind of golden relationship
with the press. But by the time of the Fair, he was fighting
with the Press all the time, over Shakespeare in Central Park
(and Joe Papp) and with Governor Nelson Rockefeller who wanted
Moses to give up some of his power, and with just about everyone.
The press had basically turned against him and, for the first
time, began to criticize him. This in turn reflected badly on
the Fair. Once we opened, the press went to town and it was primarily
to get at Mr. Moses that they did so. The main thing they harped
on was that we were not meeting our attendance projections. We
weren't. Our projections were way too high made so by our need
to show prospective investors that we would make a profit (something
no World's Fair in the US has ever done and perhaps in the world).
So our projections said we would have 70 million visitors and
we in truth only had some 50 million. No small potatoes, to do
that kind of admissions in only 12 months (over two years) of
operation. Had Mr. Moses been on better terms with the media,
I think we would have had a better break with the press.
- How did you commute to NYWF?
- Where, on-site, did you get
the 'mornin' coffee and buttered roll?
- Describe the layout within
the Press Building? And your department? What cluttered your
office?
- The Press Building had Broadcast-Quality
Radio and Television studios, were they used regularly? You Got
Stories?
- Describe for us the Model
Room at the Administration Building? You Got Stories?
- Describe, visually, RM's
office?
How regularly was Mr. Moses on site?
- Did you meet "Mr. New
York", Grover A. Whalen? He died while holding a 64/65 honorary
position. '62? '63? - Park Bench
GREG DAWSON: For the first year of working for the Fair I
would drive out from Manhattan with a friend of mine, Gates Davison,
who became the Chief of Protocol for the Fair. Gates had
a brand new Lincoln Continental convertible I remember, the first
car that had a top that disappeared into a compartment that opened
in the back. I was most impressed. Gates also had a great deal
of money from his family. A terrific guy. Then, after I worked
for the Fair for about six months, I bought my own convertible,
considerably more conservative and cheaper! A Corvair. The day
I bought it, however, the Fair assigned me a car (Olds) and driver
who picked me up every morning and drove me home in the evening,
or into Manhattan during the day if I had business there. Quite
nice if you're 27.
Coffee in the morning? We got if from a
cafeteria that was maintained in the Administration Building
operated by Restaurant Associates. And quite good food, too.
They also catered all our events and had many food concessions
on the Fair grounds once we opened.
There was a large hallway in the Press
Building when you entered and my office was to the immediate
right of the lobby, in a corner. Quite nice. I also still had
an office in the Administration Building which is where I spent
most of my time. The Deegan and Donoghue people filled the space
to the immediate right of the lobby, a large bull pen type of
space with many desks and with private offices around it. We
also had a large room for press conferences and meetings. Yes,
there were studios, but they weren't so great and really weren't
used all that much. I don't have any particular stories that
I can remember about them.
My own office was decorated with sculptures
that I made, and still do. In those days I was doing all sorts
of fanciful masks and strange creatures and I remember that (very
nicely) Bill Berns once asked me if perhaps I didn't have a few
too many in the office. It seems that Mr. Moses had made a rare
visit to our offices in the Administration Building and had,
for some reason, wandered into my office and was a bit stunned
by the display I had up. I never took anything down, however,
and the world didn't collapse. I was somewhat of an iconoclast
while at the Fair.
The Model Room was a very large room with
the model of the Fair grounds smack in the middle and a walkway
that went around it. In some parts of that walkway it became
a ramp and you could actually look down at the Fair. The model
was constantly changing from imaginary buildings (at first) to
actual little models of the buildings that would eventually be
built as architects submitted their plans. It was the responsibility
of each individual exhibitor to pay Lester Associates (the model
builders) to make a model of their building. Then it was placed
on the model. Frequently I would take people to the model and
give them a bit of a tour. Our most important visitor to the
model room was JFK, in the spring of '63.
RM's office was in the extreme right-hand
corner of the Administration Building as you faced it from the
entrance. It was a large office with a giant desk but not too
fancy. It was only one of his many offices. His main office was
at the headquarters of the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority
(which he also ran). But if memory serves me well he was at the
Fair a great deal of the time and toward the opening of the Fair,
all the time. Hard to know because he was often there or not
there and no one knew it except his three secretaries. He also
had three secretaries at the Triborough offices.
He had at least two limos with drivers
at his disposal at all times. When he would arrive at the Fair
he would have piles of papers with him that he would give his
secretaries to work through, he having written dozens of memos
and notes the night before while at home. He invented the word
"workaholic" I believe. Our public relations offices
were right across the hall from his suite of offices. And he
often entertained people at lunch, served in his offices. I once
attended such a lunch, with Rudy Valee. An embarrassing lunch,
actually, because Mr. Valee and Mr. Moses were both terribly
hard-of-hearing, and couldn't understand anything the other was
saying and simply shouted at each other. I believe they had both
been at Yale at the same time. But Mr. Moses thought Rudy was
a horse's *** . He thought many people were horse's ***es and
he was probably right.
I never met Mr. Whalen and have only a
vague memory that he came out to the Fair at some point, but
I'm not certain. He was, I believe, not in good health. But I
don't believe I ever met him. Mr. Moses didn't think too highly
of him either if I remember correctly. Whalen was basically a
figurehead during the first Fair, in '39, primarily the "greeter"
for the City and the City's Chief of Protocol.
How many Progress Reports
were actually done? The covers say eleven, I believe, but someone
told me there were only ten. Any idea how many copies of each
you put out? - Mary Ellen
GREG DAWSON: I'd have to look at my copies. I have of all
the Progress Reports actually bound together in blue leather.
I was in charge of having five sets bound: for Mr. Moses, Bill
Berns, probably for Tom Deegan, and two others. But I sneaked
in six copies; one for myself. But it's in storage. If memory
serves me, I would say probably ten is correct. I certainly don't
remember eleven. As to the number of
those printed and distributed I would guess perhaps 3,000. But
I'm not at all certain. I just don't remember the exact number.
- Were there three shelters
by the WF Marina? I have seen renderings showing three and two
exist there now. Just curious. Old photos show Johnson Marine
in one & US Coast Guard in another.
- Did the WF Corporation and
Robert Moses consider Shea Stadium as part of the World's Fairgrounds?
I know it shows up on the maps but the general consensus seems
to be that Shea was rolled into the Fair for budgetary reasons
only.
- What was your worst public
relations nightmare of the Fair? - Mary Ellen
GREG DAWSON: I really don't have the foggiest notion of how
many shelters were at the Marina. I'm not even certain I was
ever at the Marina!
In a way Shea Stadium was considered a
part of the Fair, but not really. It was not under the jurisdiction
of the Fair and we really didn't hold any major events there.
It was just part of the whole area ... Flushing. I do remember
that after the Beatles were there for their first US appearance,
I think in 1963, we were asked if we wanted to have them the
next year at the Fair. After Mr. Moses took one look at what
they looked like and knew a bit about them he absolutely did
not want them at the Fair. Perceptive, he was not all that!
Things like the "best" and the
"worst" are not really answerable questions. It probably
doesn't fit the category of your question but the "worst"
public relations moment probably was in the fall of '64 (the
end of the first year of the Fair) when Mr. Moses was forced,
by Tom Deegan and the Executive Committee (which Deegan headed),
to totally disband the Fair's Public Relations Department. That
meant that everyone below Bill Berns was, in effect, fired, including
me. It was a sad day for the Fair and, as it turned out in the
long run, a sad day for Tom Deegan because I doubt that Mr. Moses
spoke to him much after that. As it turned out [it was] a good
day for me. I immediately formed my own Public Relations company,
Gregory Dawson Inc., and staffed the company with those that
worked for me at the Fair. We had all been given severance pay
of a year's salary so we could work "free" until the
firm caught on. I immediately got several Fair exhibitors as
clients. Life works in mysterious ways. In a strange way I was
more "involved" in the second year of the Fair, and
better paid for it, than the first year. So perhaps that wasn't
the worst public relations experience. I really don't have any
other opinion on what might have been the Fair's worst public
relations experience.
Greg, can you tell us more
about Restaurant Associates? - Mike Kraus
GREG DAWSON: I can certainly tell you about Restaurant Associates
which I will continue to refer to as RA throughout this. I was
very close to the RA people at the Fair and beyond. They still
exist and operate some very big restaurants in New York City
as well as a very large and successful catering operation. But
back in the late 50s and the early 60s they were perhaps the
major restaurant operator in New York.
The man who ran RA was Joe Baum, probably
the greatest restaurant "conceptualizer" who ever lived.
Seriously. Although Joe didn't start RA, he took it from a company
that was basically a coffee supplier to the major restaurant
operator that it became. Yes, he created "Forum of the
Twelve Ceasers, and the Four Seasons (the restaurant,
not the hotel chain), and The Tower Suite, and the Zum
Zum chain, and The Brasserie, and Fonda Del Sol
and many others. Perhaps at their biggest there were seventeen
major restaurants.
The "inside" connection to the
Fair was, to a degree, this:
There was (and is) a restaurant in Central
Park called Tavern on the Green. It was, pure and simply,
a creation of Mr. Moses when he ruled the land -- especially
all the parks in New York City and New York State. He wanted
an alternative to a place called The Casino, a favorite
place of the legendary mayor Jimmy Walker. The Casino in the
Park, by the way, was where the famed Eddy Duchin and his
orchestra performed back in the 20s.
Anyway, Mr. Moses wanted to have another
restaurant in the park and got a man named Arthur Schlieffer
to run it, to actually own it. The building itself was owned
by New York City and Arthur leased it. It was an OK restaurant
but nothing special other than it's great location. When the
Fair came along Mr. Moses got Arthur Schlieffer to run the cafeteria
operation in the Administration Building and also to cater all
special events. And, at that time, Arthur sold Tavern on the
Green to RA. So in effect, RA handled the cafeteria and did
the parties that the Fair put on. Thus the kind of "inside"
relationship.
When it came time to bid for the concession
stands that sold fast food and souvenirs around the Fair site
RA had to actually bid, and did. It ended up sharing all the
stands with the other winner of the bidding process, the Brass
Rail Restaurant chain. And then, in addition, RA bid on and won
the restaurants that have been mentioned before: the Gas building,
Ford, Indonesia, the Port Authority.
Joe Baum, who died about three years ago,
was the man who really invented the whole concept of "theme"
restaurants -- the idea that restaurants are indeed theater and
that people go to them as much for the experience, the decor,
the concept, as they do for the food. And as such he influenced
restaurants all over America and, indeed, the world.
After the Fair, when I had my own public
relations company, I handled public relations for some of those
restaurants .... Fonda Del Sol, the Paul Revere,
the Four Seasons. And then, many years later in the early
90s, I produced nine musical revues for Joe Baum at a place called
Rainbow & Stars, a part of the Rainbow Room
(atop the GE building), a restaurant that Joe recreated and owned.
He also created the famed restaurant, Windows on the World
at the top of the World Trade Center. The Rainbow Room
and Windows came after he left RA. As a consultant he
created many restaurants around the world.
So Brass Rail and Restaurant
Associates operated the concession stands together? And off-topic:
Were there actually 2 iterations of the Rainbow Room? - Mike
Kraus
GREG DAWSON: I should have been a bit clearer. The Brass Rail
and RA ran separate concession stands, not together. They each
had half of the stands. I'm not certain who designed those bubbles
but I don't think it was any Fair person.
The original Rainbow Room goes back
to the 30's when the (then RCA, now GE) building was built. Much
art deco design and, if I'm not mistaken, I think Donald Desky
was the designer -- one of the great designers of the period.
The RCA building was, I believe, designed by Wallace Harrison,
a great friend of Mr. Moses who had some input in the '64 Fair.
He certainly was involved in designs at the '39 Fair.
Anyway, the Rainbow Room was always
really "owned" by the Rockefeller Center people who
owned the building. Over the years various operators were involved
and in the 70s and early 80s it got very seedy and kind of run
down and not too successful. Only the daytime private club, for
lunch, was a success because most of the top executives in the
RCA building were members. In the mid 80s the Rockefeller Center
people, including David Rockefeller who headed the organization
at that time, came to Joe Baum and asked him to
take over the operation of the place. He agreed provided they
would put up what turned out to be some $20 million to spruce
the place up. They agreed and gave him a ten year lease and he
closed the place and spent two years on a spectacular recreation,
moving some of the spaces around, hiring the architect Hugh Hardy
to redesign the place, but keeping the feel and the look of the
original. It was truly
wonderful and became enormously successful, including the installation
of a cabaret/nightclub space within the whole Rainbow Room
complex which was called Rainbow & Stars where major
performers were presented and where, for three years, I produced
a series of wonderful revues saluting major Broadway songwriters.
And it was a small room, with a great view -- one whole glass
wall with New York as the backdrop.
When Joe's lease was up, I think in 1996,
the RCA (now GE) building was under different management, Rockefeller
Center having been sold to a consortium of people including some
Japanese. And Joe was out and the Harry Cipriani people took
over (of the famed Harry's Bar in Rome and other restaurants
in New York). They have turned it into a private club, primarily,
and it's open to the public only one or two days a week and for
private parties. Joe Baum died in '98. And that's the Rainbow
story.
Greg, Please tell us the Singer
Bowl story - Mike Kraus
GREG DAWSON: At some point in '63 Mr. Moses decided that the
Fair should have a stadium, a place for the official opening
of the Fair and also a place where certain major events and shows
could be put on, preferably free, to the public so that people
coming to the Fair wouldn't think that everything inside the
Fair cost money. He was also thinking about what types of things
could be left after the Fair as a kind of legacy for Flushing
Meadow Park which was much dearer to his heart than the very
temporary Fair.
But he wanted someone else to pay for it.
So he agreed to call it after any company that would pay the
money to build it. That was not as common a practice as it is
today, naming a quasi-public structure after a corporation, and
there was some controversy over the concept. Shea stadium was
named after Bill Shea, a New York lawyer who was instrumental
in getting the city to build it, but not a corporation. And Yankee
Stadium was named after the team that played there. Stadiums
were normally named after human beings or after teams, with the
notable exception of Wrigley Field in Chicago.
Ted Royal was the account executive at
J. Walter Thompson, the ad agency on the Fair account (and later
became my partner in my public relations firm after the Fair).
He had a few other accounts, including the Singer Company. So
one day Ted said to me , "Greg, you and I are going to sell
Singer on paying for that stadium." which surprised me a
bit. But it sounded interesting so I agreed. And we did. We met
with the head people from Singer one afternoon in the Thompson
offices and we were really terrific, I say modestly. We sold
them on the idea and they did pay for it and it became Singer
Bowl. That was the name that stayed with it for a few years after
the Fair. But when the US Tennis Association took over, out went
Singer. As a matter of fact, Singer no longer exists either,
in name or otherwise. I guess they had their 15 minutes of fame.
The Bowl was a very useful facility during
the Fair and of course it was the place where the official opening
ceremonies took place complete with LBJ and complete with the
Congress Of Racial Equality picketing outside. And it rained.
Quite a day.
Were there any pavilions which
surprised you with their popularity or lack of same? - runbill
GREG DAWSON: On looking back I can't think of a particular
exhibit that surprised me with its popularity or lack thereof.
For the most part the great exhibits were really great and the
dogs were the dogs. The worst exhibits included the so-called
Hollywood pavilion and the Better Living pavilion. Maybe the
biggest surprise was the success of the Johnson Wax pavilion
because it was so simple ... basically just a movie. But it was
a great exhibit. GE and Ford and Pepsi had the Disney touch so
the success of those was a foregone conclusion long before we
opened. IBM was kind of a surprise but it's building was spectacular
and that was it's main attraction. I personally loved the Belgian
Village. The New York State pavilion was kind of a surprise hit
because of its 360 degree movie screen which I think was a "first."
The RCA pavilion was a hit because it was an on-going active
TV station all day long, albeit closed circuit to the Fair grounds.
And DuPont, again primarily a movie, was a big hit because it
combined motion picture with live action with the actors "coming
off" the screen. Very clever. And although it wasn't an
exhibit as such, one of the great highlights of the Fair, for
me, was the nightly display of the dancing fountains and fireworks.
The Fair at night was a really beautiful place to be! To have
dinner at the Fair and then stroll around when it was less crowded
and see the people having a really good time. Well now that I'm
thinking about it I kind of miss it a bit.
One of NBC's most popular
TV shows at the time of the Fair was The Jonathan Winters Show
each Saturday on NBC-TV. Can you recollect the day Robert Moses
ejected Jonathan Winters and the entire NBC-TV film crew from
the Fairgrounds? - Ray in Pasadena
GREG DAWSON: I am vaguely aware of the incident but we had
several hundred shows that originated at the Fair and this one
did not particularly stand out in my memory. It was probably
handled by John O'Keefe who was in charge of the radio-TV section
of our activities. John later went on to a very distinguished
career as head of marketing for Lincoln Center in New York and
I believe is now retired. Very good man.
Anyway, if other incidents similar to the
one you describe happened, this is what I think actually happened.
The producers of the Winters show, I would bet, did not go through
proper channels in setting up arrangements and could have simply
assumed that they could do anything they wanted on the Fairgrounds
and just came out. Or perhaps there was an internal communication
flub between our radio-TV department and the Operations Department
of the Fair which was run by a really horrible character named
Stuart Constable. Constable hated the public. He had been Mr.
Moses' right hand man for the New York City Parks Department
and literally ran the Parks Department for Mr. Moses prior to
the Fair. He was really the wrong man to be in charge of anything
that had to do with the public and relating to the public. And,
unless every "i was dotted and t was crossed" when
one was setting up an "event" such as a TV show filming
on the Fair site, Constable, out of a kind of perversity, would
probably screw it up. I doubt frankly that Mr. Moses even knew
who Jonathan Winters was. But the story of "Moses kicking
out Winters" was probably something the press enjoyed and
built up, as they did many stories about Mr. Moses that either
never happened or could have been attributed to someone else.
I remember vividly one incident that Mr.
Moses actually did get involved in because it involved me. A
press agent, Michael Goldstein, thought it would be a smart idea
if he had a client of his, a pretty starlet, take off her shoes
and wade into the reflecting pool at the Fair. He had a photographer
ready, naturally, and he pulled it off then released the photo
to the press which liked it and ran it. Mr. Moses was furious.
So RM sent me a memo to "have that press jerk" barred
forever from the Fair, something I really didn't know how to
accomplish. We had many gates and if you had a ticket, you got
in. And Mike got in many times after that. He also became, after
the Fair, a good friend of mine, and remains so to this day.
I've noticed on many items
with a Fair Corporation copyright notice that there are multiple
copyright dates preceding the notice. For example:
C 1961,1962,1963 New York World's Fair 1964-65 Corporation. Why
is that? - Mike Kraus
GREG DAWSON: I can't remember that this was something put
on Fair produced materials but it might have been. I'm not a
lawyer but I would imagine that the years preceding the line
"New York World's Fair 1964-1965 Corporation" were
the actual year of the beginning of the copyright. Obviously
the years in the phrase New York World's Fair ... the 1964-1965
bit ... were part of the official corporation name. The prior
years mentioned, the 1961,1962, etc., indicated the specific
years that the particular copyright applied to the particular
material copyrighted. Meaning of course, the copyright of the
logo and the Unisphere. I don't have any easy answer for you
but it would seem to me that it was legalese to super protect
the property rights of the Fair primarily for the protection
of the licensees who had spent a hell of a lot of money for certain
rights. That was the prime guiding principle behind any and all
the copyright protection. There really was no other need for
any protection except to protect, for the time of the Fair, the
money making deals with licensees.
In my opinion, getting the
Pieta to the Fair was one of its most impressive achievements.
Did Robert Moses negotiate directly with the Vatican to arrange
this? - Gene
GREG DAWSON: I would agree that the Pieta was an incredible
achievement, getting it to the Fair. Actually I think bringing
the Pieta over was an idea that originated in the Vatican once
the Vatican agreed to participate in the Fair. And getting the
Vatican to do that was the work of Tom Deegan who served as chairman
of the Executive Committee of the Fair and was the man who originated
the whole idea of the Fair and got Moses to become the Fair's
president. Deegan was a very big Catholic, a Knight of Malta,
raised a great deal of money for the Church and probably had
his eyes on the idea of becoming Ambassador to the Vatican some
day, which never happened. So he was able to persuade them to
participate in the Fair and the Pieta was the result. And what
a great exhibit it was too! I remember vividly the groundbreaking
ceremony we held for the Vatican pavilion which took place at
about 5 AM because it was worked out that the Pope, in Rome,
would press a button to start the motor of the backhoe that turned
the first shovel to break the ground. Under a tent. I think that
Mr. Moses was proudest of having the Pieta at the Fair.
- Part of Disney lore is that
[Disney] wanted to buy the NYWF at its conclusion and make it
a permanent theme park. His advisors were against it and steered
him toward implementing the concept in Florida, now of course
Disney World. Were you aware of any serious attempt by Walt Disney
to buy the Fair?
- I read in R. Moses autobiography
"Public Works: A Dangerous Trade" that H.L. Hunt, the
Texas oil baron, proposed to build an elaborate amusement area
at the Fair but instead became merely a nuisance to the Fair
people. What was the story with Hunt? - Gene
GREG DAWSON: Mr. Moses wanted to have "entertainment"
at the Fair, not just corporate and international exhibits, but
some rides and other things that would require paid admissions
and he wanted entrepreneurs to come in, pay a rent and a percentage
and put up these activities. But he also wanted them to be of
quality. To be special, not like a county fair. For some reason
this idea appealed to H.L. Hunt, the Texas billionaire oil man.
So he came to see Mr. Moses and RM told him his idea of creating
a section of the Fair patterned after something RM had seen in
Denmark and loved, the Tivoli Gardens with elegant landscaping,
classy rides, little places to eat, etc. Hunt thought that was
great and with a great flash of publicity including, I believe,
a front page picture in the New York Times, Hunt presented a
one million dollar check to RM --the largest single check anyone
had shelled out to do something at the Fair. Remember, that would
be like handing over a check for $10 million today.
For the next few months Hunt would come
out to the Fair almost daily. He would prowl the halls of the
Administration Building handing out mimeographed leaflets propounding
his very conservative, rightist,
redneck philosophy to any and all Fair employees. He was notoriously
cheap and would come to the Fair by subway bringing his lunch
in a brown bag. Seriously. It was kind of a joke. One day he
came into my
office with a young early twenties fellow in tow and said "Mr.
Dawson, I want you to meet my son, Roy." And the two of
them sat down, opened their lunch bags and began to eat and talk.
Actually, Mr. Hunt did all the talking. He would say things like:
"Roy. Tell Mr. Dawson here about that oil well I gave you
for your 18th birthday, because I thought it was all dried up.
Ha ha. And then it came in a gusher! Ha, ha." And so forth.
Quite bizarre. I was a bit intimidated, I have to admit, and
just really sat there and listened. Then they got up and left.
About two days later, unbeknownst to the
whole Public Relations Department, there appeared another front
page story in the papers: "H.L. Hunt Kicked Out Of Fair."
It turned out that Mr. Moses had received
the final working plans for the layout and operation of the Hunt
Tivoli Gardens project and was horrified. No landscaping. Cheap
rides. Totally unlike anything he had
anticipated. So with characteristic Moses' flourish, RM had a
Fair check drawn for one million dollars and returned to Hunt
who was quoted as saying that no one had ever returned a million
dollars to him.
You also wanted to know about Disney wanting
to buy the Fair. I don't know if he did or not, but I doubt it.
For one thing, the Disney people had always shied away from doing
anything in the New York area because of the weather. They didn't
want to build any parks where they couldn't operate year round.
There had been a big amusement park tried in the Bronx and it
was a huge failure. Yes, there's a park in New Jersey, Great
Adventure, but it's only open six or so months of the year
and that's not the kind of operation that Disney liked.
The other reason that I doubt that Disney
even contemplated "buying" the Fair is because he would
have, should have, known that it would be impossible. The City
of New York would never sell him that space or even lease it
to him. Mr. Moses would have opposed it flat out. I doubt that
Moses would have even entertained a conversation on the subject.
And he liked Disney; respected him. I'm sure the story is apocryphal.
A question was
asked regarding whether Mr. Dawson remembered the roles of Robert
Koppel and Charles Prucie in the Fair and why they disappeared
so early in the Fair's planning. He was also asked if he remembered
Bruce Nicholson who had written a book about his Fair Corporation
experiences titled "Hi Ho Come to the Fair!"
GREG DAWSON: Well, you certainly brought back some memories!
I vaguely remember Koppel and what you say I think is very accurate.
He probably was related to the Rockefellers and he must have
faded early from the picture.
Charles or Charlie Prucie (and I too am
unsure of the spelling) was involved in the Fair in the early
stages. He was a big corporate lawyer type and Mr. Moses made
him the original Vice President in charge of
the Industrial Section getting corporations to come to the Fair.
But he was an utter failure at the job and really couldn't pull
it off so RM fired him and made Martin Stone, who was in charge
of Fair licensing, also VP for getting the corporations into
the Fair. He did a bang up job. I don't know if Martin is still
alive, he would be in his 90s if he were, but he was a wonderful
man. I really liked him. A real gentleman. And very bright. Prucie
was kind of a jerk. But then, we had our fair share of such people.
I didn't know that Bruce had written a
book, which is interesting information, and I would love to know
where I could find it. I never heard of it. Bruce Nicholson was
also a friend of mine and he was indeed a good friend of Gates
Davison. But he wasn't 27. I think Bruce must have been in his
mid-thirties as was Gates. Bruce was, as you say, involved in
the International Section of the Fair and I think he went on
some of the overseas trips to get countries involved. Governor
Poletti, who I believe might still be alive and close to 100,
was in charge of that end of the Fair.
Just for informational purposes there were
five Vice Presidents of the Fair. General Potter, the Executive
VP also in charge of getting the States into the Fair; Governor
Poletti in charge of the International Section of the Fair; Martin
Stone in charge of the Industrial Section; Stuart Constable,
the VP of Operations; and Bill Berns, VP of Communications and
Public Relations. Erwin Witt was the Comptroller.Judge Maguire
was in charge of Labor Relations. General Meyers in charge of
Security. My god, I'm surprised I'm remembering all these names
and people. Gates was chief of protocol.
This whole trip down memory lane has been
fun. I've enjoyed it.
Mr. Dawson was
asked if he had a favorite spot where he could "get away."
He was also asked to describe the Administration Building, where
were the discos at the Fair and if he visits the Park today and
what his impressions are of it now.
GREG DAWSON: Let me think about a favorite spot. If I wanted
to "get away" I simply went to my office I think. One
spot I really liked was the Belgian Village which looked like
a really spectacular movie set. There was a restaurant in the
Village where a group of us would often go to at night. Also,
during the first year of the Fair, the Indonesian Pavilion was
spectacular and the food was terrific. George Lang, who worked
for Restaurant Associates at that time and was in charge of all
their Fair operations (which included the American Gas Pavilion
and the Ford Pavilion's private dining room) spent almost a year
in Indonesia before the Fair planning the dining facility for
that exhibit. And it paid off. The food was great and each night
there was a terrific show. It was a large round dining room.
Quite beautiful. Today George Lang is one of the top restaurant
consultants in the country and owner of a great New York Restaurant,
Cafe des Artistes. He also has one of the great restaurants
in Budapest, the name of which escapes me.
The Administration Building ... Well the
best way to describe where it is: if you were facing the Fair
grounds from the Grand Central Parkway (which cut through the
Fair site, with the Transportation section on one side and the
rest of the Fair on the other) it would be in the extreme left
corner, actually a few hundred feet from one of the Fair entrances
It was outside the actual Fair grounds. I don't know any better
way to describe it to you but if you are familiar with the Fair
layout you should be able to place it. I'm certain the building
is still there so if you are around Flushing Meadow Park you
should look it up.
Discos and nightclubs? Well, discos weren't
invented yet. They didn't come along until the end of the 60s.
The only nightclub type of thing I can remember is the Texas
Pavilion which was really a show more
than a nightclub. I mentioned Indonesia and the Belgian Village
which really didn't have a show until one night when George Lang
and a group of us from the Fair staff gathered there for dinner.
Afterward George produced a violin and played "Gloomy Sunday."
The Fair at night was beautiful with fireworks and the great
fountain display and great restaurants. But late night nightclubbing
was not too much part of the scene.
Of course I have passed by Flushing Meadow
frequently when on the Long Island Expressway or the Grand Central
Expressway and you can see the remains of the New York State
building, and the [Port Authority] Building and the City Building
(from the '39 Fair) and the Amphitheater. The last time I was
actually on the Fair grounds was a few years ago when I went
out to the U.S. Open tennis matches and there was (and still
is I believe) parking in Flushing Meadow. I drove around a bit
to see what there was to see. Not much. Just a park these days.
For years the U.S. Open was played in what was originally Singer
Bowl, a major Fair facility that was built specifically for the
Fair. I helped sell Singer Sewing Machine Company on financing
the building of the Bowl, but that's another story. Now, of course,
the Tennis group has built a new facility and many more and it's
a real installation out there.
A question was
asked regarding rumors that plans had existed to keep the Fair
operating after 1965
GREG DAWSON: I think that as it does with all weighty questions,
such as yours, regarding the Fair it boils down to the nature
of the beast; in this case the beast being Mr. Moses. More than
anything else, the Fair was a corporate projection of the man
and everything about it was a reflection of his interests, his
goals, his motives.
Mr. Moses most definitely did not want
the Fair to be a "lasting" thing and he was adamant
that the buildings being built would be temporary structures.
For one thing, by being temporary buildings, the City's very
tough building code could be circumvented somewhat making it
much easier and quicker to get building permits and get the Fair
built. Also, the structures could be built at far less cost,
another attractive element in getting exhibitors into the Fair.
But more than anything, Mr. Moses wanted
to create a great PARK. You have to realize that New York City
has plenty of buildings, plenty of structures, plenty of museums,
plenty of physical public amenities. But
to Mr. Moses, and many others, there could never be enough green
space.
During his tenure as Parks Commissioner
for both the City and the State he enlarged the public park areas
by an enormous amount. He also invented something new in public
planning, the parkways, highways that were, in effect,
parks as well as major expressways. And this was adopted throughout
the whole country by other cities and states. He was, in its
truest form, a Master Planner and Builder.
His whole reason for building the Fair
was to provide a reason and money to build the extremely complex
road system that surrounds the Fair and to finish that which
he had started with the '39 Fair: a green belt down the center
of Long Island.
So, no. I never heard of any ideas for
things to remain after the Fair. Quite the opposite. And I am
amazed that the New York State Pavilion still stands. It was
very much a temporary building but it's still
there. And there is the [Port Authority] Building still standing
and the Singer Bowl, which is now part of the US Tennis Association's
Flushing Meadow presence. And the Unisphere still stands. I think
he was happy that it remained. But other buildings? No. The Fair
was a moment in time, not a lasting institution except in memory.
Mr. Dawson was
asked a question about H.L Hunt building the Texas Pavilion
GREG DAWSON: Sorry to correct you, but H.L. Hunt did not build
the Texas Music Hall. When Moses threw him out he threw him out
and, to my knowledge, had nothing more to do with him.
I believe you are confusing the Hunt family
with the Wynne family, father Angus and son Gordon, who did indeed
build the Texas Music Hall and went bankrupt for their trouble.
They also owned Six Flags Over Texas which was a very
successful venture. The story of the Wynnes and the Fair has
been told many times so I won't go into it now. I knew both father
and son and they were nice people. But when they came to the
Fair and New York they were [in] just a bit over their heads
and didn't really know the territory. The show they produced,
"From Broadway With Love," was somewhat of a mess and
the people coming to the Fair really didn't want to pay for a
Broadway ticket after they had paid to enter the Fair grounds.
And they didn't, in droves. Kind of a sad Fair story.
A question was
asked about how Press Releases were handled and other questions
regarding the operations at the Press Building
GREG DAWSON: Press releases were generally handled by the
Donoghue office, the firm that was in charge of day-in-day-out
press relations. They worked for my department but they were
the ones that sent out the releases. The Fair itself didn't send
out releases. Of course all the exhibitors at the Fair had their
own PR departments and sent out their own press releases dealing
with activities specific to their own endeavors.
Once the Fair opened and there was a Press
Building, all major news outlets had representatives at the Fair
full time, including the three press services: AP, UP and INS.
UPI had not as yet been formed. It was the union of United Press
and International News Service. They all had photo people at
the Fair as did the major New York City newspapers, full time.
Each newspaper, by the way, had a full time
reporter assigned to the Fair. So they did indeed get their own
stories daily. And, of course, took some tips from our PR firms
and staff.
As to your techno remarks, we weren't all
that backwards. Photos were often sent to media outlets by wire.
It wasn't that primitive! Hey, although we used carbons and made
that (strange to think of it now) thing called "carbon copies,"
we also had Xerox copy machines. Admittedly, they were quite
new in "those days," but we did have them.
Mr. Dawson was
asked abut the memorabilia he has from the Fair
GREG DAWSON: I have bits and pieces. Quite a few memos, my
Fair pass, some other things. And about six bronze Fair medals.
Unfortunately, as I related in the interview, I had quite a few
other things, like the Lili Rethi drawings of the Fair in construction
and originals of some of our Fair posters. But through a weird
set of circumstances they ended up in the collection of Larry
Zimm and when he died I believe they went to the Smithsonian.
Which is probably just as well.
I'm kind of fascinated to have learned
that there was this pocket of Fair enthusiasts somewhere "out
there" and I must confess that 40 years ago I never even
contemplated that such a group would exist down the line. But
I think it's fun and applaud the dedicated interest that you
all seem to have.
Yes, Bill [Young] told me about the Park
adventure [Flushing Meadow get-together with enthusiasts in 2001]
and I believe Mike Pender spoke last year. I would certainly
consider it if asked but I'm not certain how much new stuff I
could offer after that rather extensive interview and all these
questions. But it might be fun.
Here's a second reply to your question
about some of the stuff that I have. I just did a bit of going
through some files and came up with "New York World's Fair
1964-1965 Radio & Television Information Kit" which
we sent out to every radio and TV station in the country and
contains a copy of a speech by Mr. Moses delivered at Yale University
on March 13, 1963, called "The Anatomy of A Fair";
a copy of the Official Preview Book of the Fair put out by Time/Life
with a cover by Whitney Darrow, Jr. and with many drawings inside
by Darrow as well, something I don't think had wide circulation
except to media people;a copy of Newsweek magazine's preview
of the Fair with a Robert Moses cover; a World's Fair poster
(the red one); a hotel guide that gave prices for all hotels
in New York City for the Fair years (most rooms, it seems, were
in the $5, $6 and $7 range, although the Plaza had rates of from
$15 -25); a schedule of Olympic trials; a Fair fact sheet; and
other stuff. I also found the printed copy of the Fair Magazine
Report, which reprinted all the magazine stories that appeared
about the Fair from April of '61 to June of '64, compiled by
the Donoghue operation. That was basically an internal distribution
and perhaps sent to all the exhibitors as well. Oh, yes. I found
some copies of the complete six weeks adventures of Poteet Canyon,
the niece of the comic strip character "Steve Canyon,"
which was the creation of cartoonist Milton Caniff. He had Poteet
working at the Fair as a Press Aide, working for her boss, Dawson
Gregg. The Fair did the whole series up as a booklet which we
printed and, again, it was a
limited distribution. And I found a copy of Life Magazine which
has the Fair on the cover and a complete story inside about the
Fair. Dated May 1, 1964, right after we opened. Quite a spread.
Mr. Dawson was
asked if he had any knowledge as to why the State of Pennsylvania
ended up in a pavilion in front of the Pool of Industry, if he
had any comments on the Quaker Oats exhibit and if he had any
knowledge of some of the more spectacular flops of the Fair --
mainly World of Food and Better Living Pavilions.
GREG DAWSON: I have no specific knowledge of why Pennsylvania
came in so late. Frankly I wasn't all that aware that they did.
But I would imagine the problem was one that many of the States
had: getting authorization and financial support from their legislatures.
General Potter, who was the Executive Vice President of the Fair,
was put in charge of getting the States in the Fair and he did
a great job against difficult odds. He had to persuade Governors
who in turn had to persuade their Assembly people. And they had
to raise money, often from local industries, and all the political
stuff that you can imagine made the task extremely difficult.
In the three years leading up to the Fair there were local elections,
state offices changed, legislators changed, etc. So if Pennsylvania
was late that's probably the reason. And that was probably also
the reason that the state ended up in the Industrial Area. The
State Area was probably filled up. That's the only reason I can
think of.
I vaguely remember Quaker Oats, but really
don't know any of the details about it.
World of Food was put together badly, I
think, by a promoter, as was the House of Good Taste, the Better
Living Pavilion, and Hollywood, USA. All were pretty much messes.
But they probably added some color to the Fair as a whole. I
have no memory of Camp Cayuca. What was it? Do you know? And
I remember that there was an American Indian Exhibit which I
think consisted of a large teepee. But I'm not at all certain.
These were not standout exhibits, not ones that created a lasting
memory and certainly not ones that created a memory in my mind!
A question was
asked regarding "I Love Lucy" Day and Babylon, NY Day
and what went in to creating "Special Days" events
at the Fair
GREG DAWSON: Actually, the whole business of special "days"
at the Fair was a big issue prior to opening and we spent a great
deal of time on just exactly how we were going to deal with this.
We were aware that the '39 Fair had gone pretty "days"
wild and that they published the daily listing you mentioned
and, frankly, we didn't want to get all that bogged down in such
an effort. We knew that special days would happen and, as with
many other things at the Fair, our policy was just that -- special
days honoring towns and such were pretty much left to those that
wanted to plan and promote them. When it was appropriate to provide
Fair Corporation assistance, we did.
However, we did plan special special
days and we had an active program promoting celebrity visits
to the Fair including a white Cadillac convertible that we drove
said celebrities around in on "their day". I well remember
when Lucille Ball came out and many others. The convertible,
by the way, was the only automobile allowed on the
Fair site. The only other mode of transportation were the Fair
"trains"
that went around taking visitors to places and then a few of
us had golf carts. But that became kind of political internally
within the administration because so few of us were allowed to
have these golf carts and it created great enmity. So soon after
I was assigned one I gave it up.
We also worked with the State and national
exhibitors when they wanted to have their special day at the
Fair. So, yes. We did originate a great many special events and
"days" but left all of the smaller ones like Babylon,
Long Island Day to others. Except, perhaps, we might have helped
Babylon, come to think of it, since that's where Mr. Moses had
his house as well as an apartment in Manhattan.
A question was
asked regarding Universal Studio's role in the Hollywood USA
pavilion, if any
GREG DAWSON: As far as I can remember, Universal had nothing
to do with the Hollywood pavilion but I wouldn't bet my life
on it. I'm surprised if they put any of the Hollywood USA stuff
into Universal's theme park because it was all such **** . But
maybe. Or maybe that kind of thing, bad reenactments of movie
scenes, monsters, wax works, props, were the way Universal got
it's theme park started. It became a great theme park, eventually,
but in the beginning it was just a poor man's Disneyland.
Mr. Dawson was
asked about the type of work his firm was able to get as a result
of his association with the Fair
GREG DAWSON: Most of the work my firm did during the second
year of the Fair for exhibitors that we became involved with
was the result of my relationship, still good and solid, with
those that remained at the Fair. They were "troubled"
exhibitors who really didn't have good relationships with the
Fair management which is why I was of value to them. We sent
out some press releases and staged some publicity events. But
for the most part we ran interference for them with the Fair
itself. Chief among these was the Hollywood USA Pavilion which
was, frankly, a mess. Originally put together by former California
Senator (and actor) George Murphy, the promoters of this operation
put together a shoddy wax museum, for the most part, and threw
in periodic gun fights from the OK Corral. And they charged
admission to see all these wonders. They also fell behind on
monies owed the Fair and stuff like that. I really was not happy
representing them but all's Fair in love and building a company,
I guess.
Anyway, my major involvement with Fair
exhibitors was with the tours for Sinclair, Clairol and DuPont
after the Fair. I did not handle work for them when the Fair
was still on.
Yes, there was an Exhibitors Committee,
made up of the public relations and advertising people from all
the industrial exhibitors at the Fair and they met quite frequently
and we met with them. There was no effort to coordinate advertising
except that we did supply some art work, layouts of the Fair,
and some props for various exhibits or special events that these
companies individually wanted. We worked closely with them but
it was an entirely cooperative relationship. And the Fair really
didn't make any demands except that certain things, like our
Graphic Standards and our copyrights, had to be observed when
they used our logo or depictions of the Unisphere. Every time
the Unisphere was shown, as our logo or in a picture or drawing,
the words "Unisphere Presented by USS United States Steel"
had to be prominently displayed near it by our agreement with
US Steel. We also had to include our copyright line. It pissed
off a great many people, including exhibitors, but that was the
agreement that Mr. Moses had made.
Dear Mr. Dawson,
I represent the Acme Time Machine Company, and it is our pleasure
to offer you a free introductory Time Travel Adventure, courtesy
of Acme Time Machines. Mr. William Young (one of our many satisfied
customers) has recommended you, and suggested a date of June
22, 1964, location north side of General Motors pavilion in Flushing
Meadow, NY. You will have exactly 5 minutes, which Mr. Young
suggests you might use to address the crowd, as you will be a
visitor from the Future that these Fairgoers are dreaming about.
- Bradd Schiffman
GREG DAWSON: I would probably say something like: Tout ca
change, tout c'est la meme chose....the more things change the
more they stay the same.
Because in truth, with minor adjustments
due to advances in technology, the world of "tomorrow"
is very much the same as the one we're now living in (1964).
God knows the Middle East is the same. And so is much of the
rest of the world with some slight shifting back and forth of
international alliances. The problems we face, both as a nation
and as little people occupying some time on a large planet, are
the same.
The '39 Fair presented a preposterous proposition,
"The World of Tomorrow," and then proceeded to predict
and present with such exhibits as GM's Futurama and Democracity
in the Perisphere. Most of those "predictions," as
presented, never happened. Wisely, I think, the '64 Fair didn't
even attempt to do much crystal ball gazing, with the exception
of ATT's video phones (which although quite feasible, never caught
on). As an entertainment, which was really it's primary purpose,
I think the Fair did an astonishing job. Like any gigantic enterprise,
within it were hits and misses. But the hits far outdistanced
the misses. And it was one hell of a bargain. A $2 admission
charge and once inside most shows were free. Compare that to
Disneyland today where you have to pay $100 for the day, adult
or child, and it doesn't matter what time of day you go there.
When you really think about it, the failures
of the Fair were primarily monetary and I don't think the general
public really gives a damn about such things. The fact that some
banks --and it was primarily
banks -- bought some Fair bonds that they lost money on really
doesn't matter all that much to Mr. and Mrs. Jones and their
kids from Springfield, IL.
There were many controversies about the
Fair: the argument over whether there should be an overall design
concept with the Fair dictating what the buildings should look
like, what the symbol of the Fair should be, should Mr. Moses
have kissed the behind of the Bureau of International Exhibitions,
whether the Fair should have built a great art museum (when New
York City has the Museum of Modern Art and the Metropolitan Museum
of Art and about 50 other high quality museums!), should the
Fair bring great international musical and
theatrical groups over (when Lincoln Center was being built and
would be ready for the Fair and had a very extensive program
of great productions), etc. But when all was said and done, the
remarkable thing is, the Fair got built! It was a billion dollar
project, the first of its size anywhere in the world, and it
attracted more people than ever had gone to any single event
in history and I believe it still holds that record.
I would sum up my little talk to that crowd
I am going to see on June 22nd (I have just cleared my calendar,
by the way) by telling them that 38 years from now they will
be very glad they went to the Fair!
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